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Re: Rant: how stupid does java look



Hello Hannah, Adam, Joel, et al,

On 7 May 2005, at 17:23, Hannah Schroeter wrote:

Hello!

On Fri, May 06, 2005 at 11:03:04PM -0700, Ben Goren wrote:

On 2005 May 6, at 5:55 PM, Henry Lenzi wrote:

P.S. It'll be a cold day in Hell before anything in OpenBSD gets
compiled with Mono. I suppose there's a very off chance that Java code
could make it in if it compiles cleanly with gcj...

gcj... That thing where whenever I tried (ok, the last try is quite some time ago), not even a hello world kind of program worked?

gcj is now capable of compiling Eclipse, if that is a reasonable metric for you.


but I'd be really,
really surprised. You'd have to convince Theo that Java is a necessary
language for whatever it is that you're doing, and I just simply don't
see that happening anytime soon. b&

Ok, frankly, there *are* some tasks where manual memory management is tedius and GC could be faster than reference counted pointers in C++.

Who cares about *faster* when it isn't *safe*? We are discussing this on misc_(_at_)_openbsd, after all.


But I don't see anything worth including into base that would
require a programming language not already supported in base.

I see this word "base" mentioned on occasion. Is the official definition of base "not (ports || packages)"? In other words, are the only languages supported in the base those provided by gcc 2.x and 3.x and Perl? Can I write core OpenBSD code in Objective-C? Why not Java, now that gcj support is so good?


P.P.S. Ports is, of course, another story. No reason why Java and Mono
shouldn't have their place there--particular licenses, code quality,
etc., permitting. b&

*nods* And then a mostly GPL'ed Mono is even easier than (even more) encumbered Sun JDK.

Sun has fewer patents on Java than Microsoft does on C#/CLR/.Net, so I would watch those comparisons. gcj + classpath + etc. are all GPL.


On 7 May 2005, at 20:02, Adam wrote:

On Fri, 6 May 2005 23:03:04 -0700
Ben Goren <ben_(_at_)_trumpetpower_(_dot_)_com> wrote:

And, truthfully, I just don't see the point behind it, either. It's
not like C# or Java is *that* much better than C or C++ or Perl or
Lisp or any of a dozen other languages that *aren't* encumbered. I
mean, sure, you could probably pick something to which Java is well
suited, and I certainly don't want to start a language flame war.

Actually, C# really is much better than other languages for what it does. Is there some other safe, garbage collected, high level language with performance anywhere close to C#?

You mean, besides Java, Modula-III, OCaml, Haskell, Eiffel, Ada, Oberon, Lisp, and Python? (Before you respond, do a little research on language features and performance.)


And what exactly is encumbering C#? Its an ECMA standard, and you are free to write a BSD
licensed implimentation if you don't like the existing options. That's
like saying C++ is encumbered because gcc is GPL and MS video studio is
proprietary.

No, it is like saying C++ is encumbered because Bell Labs has two dozen software patents on it, which they do not.


Of course, I don't think mono or java should be part of openbsd, I am
just pointing out that C# is an open standard.

Wrt "open standard", to quote a famous thinker: I do not think that means what you think it means.


On 8 May 2005, at 00:46, Joel Rees wrote:

counter-trolling,

Good for you!

On 2005.5.8, at 04:02 AM, Adam wrote:

On Fri, 6 May 2005 23:03:04 -0700
Ben Goren <ben_(_at_)_trumpetpower_(_dot_)_com> wrote:

And, truthfully, I just don't see the point behind it, either. It's
not like C# or Java is *that* much better than C or C++ or Perl or
Lisp or any of a dozen other languages that *aren't* encumbered. I
mean, sure, you could probably pick something to which Java is well
suited, and I certainly don't want to start a language flame war.

Actually, C# really is much better than other languages for what it does. Is there some other safe, garbage collected, high level language with performance anywhere close to C#?

I've heard the honeymoon is over and people are discovering C# is much like the marriage of Java, Borland Delphi, and MFC/MSVB/MSV(C) xxx that one would expect.


I suppose I should try it sometime. I'm not very motivated, however.

My rule is to not criticize, admonish, or praise until I actually know what I am talking about. But after I do, then the guns blaze.


C#'s semantics are 98% the same as Java.  Take that as you will.

Joe
---
Joseph Kiniry
Department of Computer Science
University College Dublin
http://secure.ucd.ie/



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