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Re: csh vs. (ba|(pd)?k)sh [From: Re: Thanks]

On Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 03:44:50AM -0700, Mark Grimes wrote:
> > hmm, i remember such very old document, why csh is not suitable for
> > programming, and its interactiveness should not be greater than pdksh's
> > one. can somebody enlighten me what _could_ be the reasons for csh being
> > considered more secure than pdksh? so i am not secure by default,
> > because the first step i do at a fresh installed system is chsh at #
> > prompt? :-)
> csh != /bin/sh (aka pdksh) -- I think you are confusing the two.

no, i am not. indeed, i say, that csh is completely unsuitable as
command-prompt-shell, as well as a programming shell. one its history
mechanics can make one mad... at the same time, pdksh is vi/emacs style
history (personally i preffer vi mode), has tab completion, which is far
more comfortable than esc completion in csh... you must be mocking at
me, when you say csh is better! :-) but then again, the sentences written
here, are my personal opinion, and also there is no "right" or "wrong"

> > > There were reasons that csh was picked as the shell for root. Remember
> > > "secure by default", well as soon as you set BASH as the shell for root
> > > you are not default. 
> > 
> > just wondering, are people using bash as interactive shell because of
> > some extra features or just because they used to?
> Isn't it tiring when new world open-source movement users like to
> shake up old world UNIX as to why things aren't implemented the
> 'correct' way?  Questions like 'how do i setup masq under BSD' when
> they are refering to NAT.

well, it's just matter of definitions, or words. if you understand, what
the person asks about, what is the problem? well, i speak english with
visible (hearable) problems, i use wrong words and phrases, so should i
just keep silence and learn until i talk 100% correctly? as for me,
words don't matter, sense matters. if a sense is not clear, let people
rephrase it. why hurring to answer to a question, when you don't get it?
(i'm speaking about your first comment regarding confusing csh and ksh)

> I see >some< good innovative development
> coming from Linux-land, but I also see a lot of development coming
> from ppl that have not used or read up on UNIX before they were
> 'born' into the open source movement, which allows history to repeat
> itself.

well, it's called human nature. if you will look at any region of human
activity, the history repeats here and there. is CS somehow special, to
behave with it in a different way?

> I can't seem to recall a csh specific vulnerability off the top of my head, I
> remember a couple bash issues over the past 3-4 years.  It may be personal
> preference, but I think BSDish (c-shell types) shells are more friendly
> to the C programmer than AT&Tish (korn-shell types) -- some of us
> spend our lives in shells, rather than hidden behind GNOME/KDE,
> over the years I've opted for csh-like syntax between the two when it
> comes to complex i/o redirection.

more friendly to the C programmer? well, unless C is the _only_ thing
you wanna now, csh is not as friendly. after all, i think something like
Pike will be even more friendly to the C programmer. in csh it is juts
several key words similar to C, but other are not! it is even worse,
csh is just _partly_ like C, the other part is far from such similarity.
it is obvious, that ksh is more powerful at CLI and as a programming
language, that's why all scripts in the system are written in ksh, and i
was very confused, when found (at that time it was OpenBSD 2.4) a couple
of csh scripts in the source tree. just some "C programmer" wrote them,
and nobody bothered to port them to ksh...

the document i mentioned showed many things with redirections,
variables, that are difficult or impossible to do with csh, and which
are done simply with [k]sh...

> The largest complaint I hear about csh is solely access to command
> line completion is an expensive reach to ESC and using !! and
> substitution can be often more painful than a few presses of the
> arrow key (both of which are cured through Emacs).

yeah... i may be repeating myself, but ESC and !! is especially
incomfortable. set -o vi (for a man using vi editor) and tab complete
just rocks. why should i crypt something at command line with !! (i know
there is a way to substitute substrings in previous commands and run the
result in csh, but my God, it is so cryptic!)?

> There are still other shells that are very nice like tcsh (my
> favorite) and zsh, that provide this additional functionality
> that make shell-life very comfortable.

yes, they make, but for me pdksh is enough, relatively compact, fast not
overwighted with features to include the whole universe into command
line shell...

> It's best to keep the root shell minimal and audited... as long as
> sudo is audited, what's so painful about utilizing this for the few
> times root is needed (a la s/w installation)

sure, but than again, pdksh is small, and seems to be audited (or it is
not being for ~6 years within OpenBSD?), and it is <empasize>Bourne
shell compatible</emphasize>. i think it is the argument which is
coherent to your words about unix and history...

> While I'm babbling - I will stress again - make SURE your root shell

heh... but the answer is not uncloaked... why csh is the root's shell?

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