Re: Again?: Mouse in console

[Mark Farquaad <markfarquaad@gmail.com>]

On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 12:30:55 +0100, Rogier Krieger <rkrieger@gmail.com> wrote:

> While listed in the archives, I couldn't find this list on the OpenBSD
> mailing lists page. I suppose it would be a useful addition to the page
> in question. The HTML to that effect is underway (separately).

Useful does not mean it is wanted by Theo de Raadt or the
rest of the devs. Trust me, I know from bad experience trying
to start a discussion about the OpenBSD documentation which
Theo stopped dead in its tracks by "officially" calling me a "troll"
and asking people not to support a brainstorming process about
it. See my earlier mail: "OpenBSD Docu. - Brainstorming".
And no, in case you might think this, this is not "old mud" 
I'm recycling, I'm just trying to get to grips with what seems to 
be the reality with OpenBSD.
Or can you explain to me what the harm of a serious
and well ment brainstorming process amoung those who 
voluntarily participate here of their own free will, about an aspect 
of OpenBSD is or could be? 
Even if it was initiated by a newbie?
Even if Theo was right and I was a "troll", which is not the case,
even then I can't see how talking about and a discussion about
the documentation of OpenBSD is per se harmful for OpenBSD, 
even if said discussion was alledgedly started by a "troll".
Sorry. I just don't see that.
Logic reasoning sais: Theo does NOT want to change a 
damn littly dittydork about documentation of OpenBSD,
or maybe more percisely, how that documentation might be 
established and created, thus it's current level of satisfactory-ness.

"Supposing" something might be useful, even if well founded
by fact, does not cut it with Theo and the majority of devs here.
What matters here are only two things:
1.) You must prove your will to adopt to do everything the
way it has always been done with OpenBSD, no matter if
it's about source code, FAQ or any other already existing or 
non-existing part related to OpenBSD.
2.) You must *NOT* return insults by people who have been
working on OpenBSD longer than you, no matter how unjustified
or even potentially harmful to OpenBSD their insults might be.

So no, supposing your HTML might be useful won't cut it
here, but complying to point 1.) and 2.) which you are and
I was / am not, might give your HTML a chance.
Let's hope the best. :-)


> Regardless of what others may or may not do, why go for a late tackle?
> Recycling previous mud to throw it again won't help anyone.

I'm sure the OpenBSD guys, most of all Theo who must've been
here from the start (duh! ;-), have a LOT of experience with
creating exactly that which was created so far:
A great super secure OS with unprecedented manpages 
(allegedly) and a somewhat underinflated and scattered, 
not-up-to-date documentation.
Given, they have experience in producing what was produced so
far and they surely know, what can produce best what was 
produced so far, perhaps they even know what kind of people
are capabalbe to produce what was produced so far, even before
getting to know those people! (?)

But how would they know how to produce something which was
not produced so far?
Such as a well organized, up-to-date, centralized and complete
documentation?
If they didn't produce it so far, I dare say: THEY DON'T KNOW 
HOW TO PRODUCE IT!

Maybe they don't *want* to produce it, yes, that seems to be the
case here, but they certainly still don't know how to do it because
you *must* have done something before you can fully say you know
how to do it.

So if Theo and the rest of the devs don't know how to produce
documentation which is organized, up-to-date, centralized and 
complete, why would he, Theo sabotage a (my) post, where
an effort is started, to start a discussion on how such a 
documentation might be created... (by THOSE who are willing to
do it and have the time to do it!), not by those who don't
care for it, such as obviously Theo and many devs.

Why would Theo sabotage a brainstorming process about how
such ducumentation might be produced, if a.) He not only does
not care to participate in such a documentation effort, and more
importantly b.) does NOT WANT such a documentation.

Having said that, I feel an organized, up-to-date, centralized
and complete documentation to use your words: "supposedly is
useful" to OpenBSD.
I do not think such a documentation would diminish OpenBSD's 
reputation of being technically so advanced and good, that only 
super-pros who've worked with it for years and years halfway 
understand how to use it.

But as pointed out: Supposedly useful as you can see yourself
now, does not seem to be the relevant factor for a contribution.
Either that, or an organized, up-to-date, centralized and complete
documentation really would be HARMFUL to OpenBSD or its
reputation of being *cool* or *secure* or *technically advanced*,
which I am actually sure it all is.

This is my explanation why this *shit* I've been trying to fling here
is not mere mud, neither old nor new.
If you feel you've wasted your time reading this, fine, I've 
wasted my time on many other things before. If you feel
you must blame others, such as the authors of what you
just read for wasting your time with reading their work, then I'll 
say: Fuck you! 
I've wasted my time writing it!! It's a free world. If you don't like
my writing complain to the moderators and ask them to kick
me off this list. - Or to ask me by an official moderator (no, I
don't know their names, please ID yourself if you are one) to
stop writing to or using this list.

Addmitteldy, this was a lot of "gibberish" to answer a question,
but then I like questions to be answered so as not to leave any 
more questions or doubts. I guess that's just my style. 
Like it or hate it but don't complain about it! ;-)
Probably that's also the reason why I'm not satisfied with the 
existing docu (and how it's creation is set up).


Mark Schmid

PS: One complaint is justified here:
The title of this original thread / post does not match the
content I just added to it.
But then, when trying to communicate in posts with self-evident
titles, some saboteurs sabotage such posts with their power by
branding me to be a "troll". So for now I guess this must all stay
hidden from their eyes and in posts such as this one... ;-)