Re: New unofficial document - oamp.pdf

[Mark Farquaad <markfarquaad@gmail.com>]

Hi Joseph Bender,

You are saying out loud what I am trying to convince you
all of what is not a good aproach:

Spaghetti code *SUCKS* in this instance.
If you want to set something good up, you want to
sit down and think about what you want to do BEFORE
you friggin start hacking!!!
You *friggin* SPAGHETTI PROGRAMMERS!!!
;-)

I'm trying to tell you to stop hacking and start thinking
about the whole process from a bird's eye perspective,
only for once... *pretty-please???*.

This whole mess is because NOONE is thinking about
this all and properly organizing (my opinion)!!!
EVERYONE is just hacking along, not seeing beyond
the tip of his nose, at least that's the current organization:
Just work, don't think about what you work on, just
do ANYTHING and it will surely be helpfull...
*bullshit*!

No. I don't want ANY privileges and I'm not whining!
Where did you ever get that stupid idea?
All I want is for you *hackers* to stop hacking for
only one moment to put one little tiny ounce of thought
into *organizing* what to hack on!! That's my whole point!
Organize BEFORE you start hacking!!!

O.K.,
I'll have to talk *programmer-speach* to ya all:
I don't want to hack and improve the code of the
current FAQ "programm".
I want to write a new "engine", which will finally 
produce a better FAQ "programm"!

Think of it in terms of a game:
I don't want to improve on the graphics or mission
goals of an existing game, I want to write a new
game engine! Except this engine should produce not
a fun game, but a better (and fun for all to work on) FAQ!
All I'm trying to do is convince the makers of the current 
"game" to think about a new "engine" which could produce 
a better "game", meaning FAQ.

Maybe I'll *shut up*, but I WILL NOT hack mindlessly!!!

Over and out,
Mark




On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 12:32:15 -0500 (EST), Joseph C. Bender
<jcbender@bendorius.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 1 Jan 2005, Mark Farquaad wrote:
> 
> >
> > O.K., I understand that you're not satisfied with me only
> > offering *ideas*.
> > But look at it from my perspective: You (and the dev team)
> > are the one's with:
> > 1.) The capability of launching and creating a documentation
> > project which would as I envision, allow more people to actively
> > participate and submit work.
> > 2.) The *knowledge* and *experience* how to get many people
> > to work on one big project (with many side-arms), withtout
> > endagaring quality. The quality of the OpenBSD source code
> > is testimony to this knowlege and experience.
> > 
> On point 2:  If they're the ones who have the knowledge and experience to
> work on one big project, and if they're telling you that this sort of
> "input" is not wanted, don't you think it'd be useful working in the
> directions they suggest?
> 
> 
> > All I'm asking from you Nick and from the rest of the OpenBSD
> > dev team (which might go all the way to Theo, I don't know how
> > you are organized) is to supply that which cannot be supplied
> > by me and those who are willing to put in work for the FAQ or
> > documentation (project).
> >
>        Don't you think it would be useful to find out how the dev
> team structure, especially with respect to how the FAQ and manpages are
> developed, before you preset your ideas?
> 
> > I want you and the dev team to think about how to use the same
> > organization which is used for the source code, to allow multiple
> > people to contribute to the FAQ / documentation without quality
> > being endangered and then to implement this organization for a
> > FAQ / documentation project, so people like me and others who
> > DO NOT HAVE THE POSSIBILITIES you and the dev team have,
> > to start contributing and putting in the work they can.
> > 
> It would seem that they have.  People with commit access to the tree are
> not as numerous as you might think.  Have you actually read
> source-changes?  The FAQ and the manpages are in CVS, with seemingly the
> same sort of commit process the rest of the tree gets.  Hint:  Look for
> the "ok foodev@ bardev@ bazdev@"
> 
> And frankly, I've never had a problem submitting diffs of things that I
> think are useful, to ANY part of the tree.  If I've screwed up (and ghod
> knows I have, dammit), I get feedback, lots of it.  Almost all of it
> useful.
> 
> > I repeat this to you as I said before: I never said I could do a better
> > job than you. I never even said ANYONE could singlehandedly do
> > a better job than you.
> >
>        Oh, but you are.  You have.  And Nick is far more tolerant than
> most of us would be.
> 
> > My whole point is to set up the FAQ / documentation project on
> > the rails it really needs to become what I and many others feel
> > would aid the entire OpenBSD community and project.
> > 
> So bloody set it up and start writing.  Nick just stated that he'd link in
> anything that was mature enough to be useful.
> 
> > You keep trying to punch me up for not submitting any specific
> > work / updates for the existing FAQ.
> > Again:
> > You're missing my point!!!
> > 
>        No, I think you're missing his.  The unofficial motto seems to be
> "shut up and hack".  Ideas are great.  Turn them into something useful.
> People get commit status not for their ideas, but making those ideas into
> useful productive work.
> 
> 
> > Yes, eventually I might be willing to put in real work in an ongoing
> > FAQ / documentation project, but right now I'm focused on starting
> > this project first!
> > 
>        Oh, eventually, is it?  Getting it started, you're waiting on?
> What's http://www.openbsd.org/faq?
> 
> What I'm hearing throughout these posts is "I don't have commit status,
> whine, sob, whine!  I want to be able to contribute without having my
> changes approved! *cry, sob*!  I know! *sniff sniff* I'll start something
> else so I can be king of the hill, *whine sniffle*"
> 
> You'd be much better off getting started like everyone else does.  Submit
> sections per the guidelines, submit diffs, keep track of changes in
> -current and get changes ready for the next release.
> 
> 
> > Why?
> >
> > Because of all that which you are complaining about:
> > That there are not enough people submitting real work!
> > To get people to submit real work, you *MUST* offer an
> > environment which allows people to submit work.
> > In other words: You have to encourage people to submit
> > work, you have to offer a homepage, maybe a discussion
> > board or separate mail list, means of communication, etc.
> > for those people who are willing to put in work.
> > 
>        Why would these things contribute to more real work?
> A separate mailing list I'll give you, but what you're talking about is
> more work for the maintainers to check over, if they have to look at
> discussion boards and eleventy-billion other points where "work" is being
> done.
> 
> I still don't see what's so broken about submitting changes to the right
> people, or posting them to misc@, for that matter.
> 
> 
> > Look at the difference between FreeBSD and OpenBSD:
> >
> > FreeBSD has a homepage for the documentation project
> > where they ASK people to contribute and send in their
> > stuff.
> > OpenBSD does not. The only thing OpenBSD provides is
> > your (new) link, telling people in about 200 ways what you
> > don't want, what they must comply to, etc. etc.
> > Honestly: Do you think your link:
> > http://www.holland-consulting.net/obsd/faq-help.html
> > would motivate ANYONE to put in work?
> >
>        Well, for me, at least, at least I know what NOT to waste my time
> on doing.  And if people can't write to those things they must comply to,
> they shouldn't be contributing at all.  What sense would that make, to
> take any documentation at all and then have to wade through the crap?
> Seriously?  From what I understand, they already get enough of it, hence
> the document.
> 
> 
> > So why do you complain about too few people putting in work?
> >
> > I say an environment needs to be created, which allows
> > people to put in work and which motivates them to do so.
> > I am more than willing to discuss how such an environment
> > should or could be created, although admitting that the dev
> > team probably knows more about this. But I CANNOT create
> > such an environment myself!!
> >
>        Because that would actually require you to do some real work,
> which you have shown absolutely no capacity to do.
> 
> You seem to think that some magical BBS is going create reams and reams of
> quality documentation.  I'm not sure where you get this idea from, but it
> is nice to think about.  Where is the motivation to come from?  Cash
> prizes?  Signed CD sets?  Having Cthulu come over to lay waste to the
> worst enemy of the person who gets the most documentation committed?
> 
> > I am NOT part of the OpenBSD team and I don't have the means
> > to create such an environment by setting up an own project with
> > an own homepage, discussion board for discussions on what
> > should go in the documentation and what not, how things could
> > be rearanged, etc.
> >
>        So why are you going on and on?  You have to work with the project
> if you cannot start your own project.  The "how things could be
> rearranged" is telling, though.  You want more control than is due you.
> You'll not get it with whining.
> 
> At this point, you're starting to sound like a broken record.
> 
> > YOU and the devs MUST set this up or noone will!
> > I can only ask you to do it and try to convince you WHY setting
> > up such a project / environment might be benificial to the
> > entire OpenBSD project.
> > Or at least to think about it!
> > 
>        Again, I ask, has it EVER happened to occur to you that maybe,
> just maybe, the devs are happy with the current environment?
> 
> Trust me, this *is* a topic that has driven Nick quietly crazy for months.
> 
> But what you are asking is for people to spend large amounts of their time
> doing work setting something up based on what you're saying.  If they
> reject it, they probably have their own *very good* reasons for it.
> 
> Again, if you don't have the means to do it, you shouldn't expect anyone
> else to, either.
> 
> > So for the moment, please quit "whining" about me not
> > submitting any "real" work to the FAQ. Trying to convince
> > you and the dev team to create an environement where more
> > people contribute to the FAQ IS *real work*. Believe me.
> > Maybe even THE "real work"...
> > But that might be hard to see from your point of view...
> > 
>        I highly suggest you re-think that.  The "real work" IS the code,
> the documentation.  Whining on a mailing list is not work, it's raising
> the noise floor, distracting the people who produce the code and the
> documentation.
> 
> <rest of repetitive egomanical post snipped>
> 
> It boils down to this:  Get a ladder, get over your inflated ego.
> 
> SHUT UP AND HACK.
> 
> --
> 
> Signing off,
> 
> Joseph C. Bender
> <jcbender@bendorius.com>