Re: Are the FSF helpful?

["Kirk @ Speakeasy" <mouserkm@speakeasy.net>]

Sounds like the start of a new religious war....

I remember the last one... maybe its still going on.... How to pronounce
vi.....

But it seems some things never change in the *NIX world...

--
Kirk Moore
Network/Software Engineer
Moore Webs Hosting.

Black holes are created when God divides by zero!
----- Original Message -----
From: "anonymous" <vcharlie@mindspring.com>
To: <misc@openbsd.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 9:15 PM
Subject: Re: Are the FSF helpful?


> Nick, Nick,
>
> Calm down and do a couple of quaaludes.
> BTW, the correct term is GNU/Linux.
>
> After all, if it wasn't for Richard Stallman, Linus Torvalds would be
> mumbling "Ya want fries with that burger?" at the Helsinki McDonalds.
>
> ;-)
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Nick Holland <nick@holland-consulting.net>
> To: Misc @OpenBSD <misc@openbsd.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, 2003 January 01 21:43
> Subject: Re: Are the FSF helpful?
>
>
> > Ciaran O'Riordan wrote:
> > ...
> > > While reading the OpenBSD docs I was surprised that GNU/Linux
> > > is referred to as "Linux".
> > >
> > > The OpenBSD community are quite a technical group, it is obviously
> > > known that Linux is a kernel, not an OS.  So what reason is there for
> > > choosing "Linux" over "GNU" or "GNU/Linux".
> > >
> > > The name "Linux" is used constantly by proprietary software companies.
> >
> > It is also used by press, media, and almost everyone other than some
> > FSF fanatics.
> >
> > > It allows them to ignore the issues of Freedom and openness thus
> > > encouraging people to run (and trust) the binary software packages
> > > they distribute.
> >
> > Sorry, you have a lot of work to do to convince me of your logic.  In
> > virtually everyone's mind I've met, Linux is free software...
> >
> > > Users and developers in the general Free Software community can make
> > > their own decisions as to what name they want to use.  Why not band
> > > together to help eachother?
> >
> > We seem to have a very different definition of "free".
> >
> > Your definition of "free" includes a multi-page legal document filled,
> > almost 18k in plain text, the meaning of which is debated endlessly by
> > people.
> >
> > As you have chosen to define "free" as you wish (does capitalizing it
> > let you do that?), I will define "Linux" as I wish.  For me, "Linux"
> > means:
> >    "The operating system consisting of a kernel originally created
> >    by Linus Torvalds surrounded by numerous applications and
> >    utilities, packaged by many major and hundreds of minor
> >    distributors.  People participating in this are too numerous to
> >    mention, but include code from BSD, FSF, and thousands of people
> >    and groups around the world of varying affiliations",
> > but that's too long to type everywhere.  So, we call it Linux.  You
> > call it GNU/Linux.  Whatever.  Someone else could call it Bob.  Ooops,
> > no, that name was already used.
> >
> > Oh, btw.  As I recall, there are bits of BSD code in GNU
> > software...so, shouldn't you call it BSD/GNU/Linux?
> >
> > > The GNU project has created many good pieces of software that are used
> > > by OpenBSD people. (GCC, GDB, binutils, wget, textutils, gnupg,
> > > gnuchess, fileutils, emacs, bash, automake, autoconf, etc.)  The
> > > campaigning the Free Software Foundations does against anti-programmer
> > > laws also aids the Free Software community as a whole.
> >
> > Don't start me.
> >
> > > Calling the system "GNU" or "GNU/Linux" is not only more accurate but
> > > also raises awareness about the GNU project.  This helps attract
> > > developers which benefits all Free Software OSs.
> >
> > And next what?  A link to the GPL and FSF web site?  Your Freedom to
> > dictate other people's freedom?  Your freedom to dictate our
> > advertising for your politics?
> >
> > > This is not an all-or-nothing issue, it's the-more-the-merrier.  Even
> > > if a quarter (or even one) of the OpenBSD community used the term
> > > "GNU" or "GNU/Linux", it would be helpful.  OpenBSD developers owe the
> > > FSF nothing, that's what sharing is about, many GNU/Linux users use
> > > openssh etc. (thanks).
> >
> > How about seeing if you can get a non-trivial percentage of the Linux
> > community to call themselves "GNU/Linux" first, before pushing this
> > kind of stuff on people who Really Don't Care.
> >
> > I know a lot of people using lots of operating systems.  I think I
> > have heard precisely two people refer to Linux as "GNU/Linux".  One of
> > them, a relatively new user, said, "Did you know that there are some
> > people who say Linux should be said, written and pronounced,
> > 'GNU/Linux'?" as if it were the most wacked out thing in the world,
> > the other said "GNU" with a snide tone in his voice.  These were Linux
> > users, not *BSD users, neither of them even recognized the meaning of
> > the OpenBSD T-shirt I was probably wearing.
> >
> > Whereas, I know Linux users who were using it almost from day one,
> > when it was installed from floppy disks.  People who live, eat and
> > breath it.  And NONE of them refer to it as "GNU/Linux".
> >
> > You have a loooooonnnnnnnggggg way to go before you come preaching to
> > us.  Work over your choir, first.  Until Linux users start saying "I'm
> > using GNU/Linux" to me, what you are requesting of us is just plain
> > silly.  OpenBSD does not wish to be a marketing arm for what appears
> > to be just a small fringe of the FSF that appears to forget SOFTWARE
> > is the product, not names.
> >
> > A lot of people associated with free software (note the lower case
> > letters, but I do include people with the FSF in this) are doing very
> > good, very important work.  People wishing to change the popular name
> > of a popular piece of software just give those doing real work a bad
> > name.
> >
> > > Any thoughts?
> >
> > Yes.
> > The point at which you tell us how to reference Linux in our
> > documentation is the point at which I expect a note from Theo saying,
> > "Nick, remove every reference to that operating system" (he won't
> > phrase it like that, however), and if he doesn't say that to me, I'll
> > ask him.
> >
> > May I suggest you devote your time to auditing your own code base,
> > improving your product, rather than getting wrapped up in petty little
> > issues like names.  I don't care what people call me, as long as it is
> > said with respect that I have earned.  I'd suggest that philosophy be
> > adopted by the FSF.
> >
> > Or, put concisely: "Shut up and hack"
> >
> > Nick.
> > --
> > http://www.holland-consulting.net