Re: Are the FSF helpful?

["anonymous" <vcharlie@mindspring.com>]

Nick, Nick,

Calm down and do a couple of quaaludes.
BTW, the correct term is GNU/Linux.

After all, if it wasn't for Richard Stallman, Linus Torvalds would be
mumbling "Ya want fries with that burger?" at the Helsinki McDonalds.

;-)


----- Original Message -----
From: Nick Holland <nick@holland-consulting.net>
To: Misc @OpenBSD <misc@openbsd.org>
Sent: Wednesday, 2003 January 01 21:43
Subject: Re: Are the FSF helpful?


> Ciaran O'Riordan wrote:
> ...
> > While reading the OpenBSD docs I was surprised that GNU/Linux
> > is referred to as "Linux".
> >
> > The OpenBSD community are quite a technical group, it is obviously
> > known that Linux is a kernel, not an OS.  So what reason is there for
> > choosing "Linux" over "GNU" or "GNU/Linux".
> >
> > The name "Linux" is used constantly by proprietary software companies.
>
> It is also used by press, media, and almost everyone other than some
> FSF fanatics.
>
> > It allows them to ignore the issues of Freedom and openness thus
> > encouraging people to run (and trust) the binary software packages
> > they distribute.
>
> Sorry, you have a lot of work to do to convince me of your logic.  In
> virtually everyone's mind I've met, Linux is free software...
>
> > Users and developers in the general Free Software community can make
> > their own decisions as to what name they want to use.  Why not band
> > together to help eachother?
>
> We seem to have a very different definition of "free".
>
> Your definition of "free" includes a multi-page legal document filled,
> almost 18k in plain text, the meaning of which is debated endlessly by
> people.
>
> As you have chosen to define "free" as you wish (does capitalizing it
> let you do that?), I will define "Linux" as I wish.  For me, "Linux"
> means:
>    "The operating system consisting of a kernel originally created
>    by Linus Torvalds surrounded by numerous applications and
>    utilities, packaged by many major and hundreds of minor
>    distributors.  People participating in this are too numerous to
>    mention, but include code from BSD, FSF, and thousands of people
>    and groups around the world of varying affiliations",
> but that's too long to type everywhere.  So, we call it Linux.  You
> call it GNU/Linux.  Whatever.  Someone else could call it Bob.  Ooops,
> no, that name was already used.
>
> Oh, btw.  As I recall, there are bits of BSD code in GNU
> software...so, shouldn't you call it BSD/GNU/Linux?
>
> > The GNU project has created many good pieces of software that are used
> > by OpenBSD people. (GCC, GDB, binutils, wget, textutils, gnupg,
> > gnuchess, fileutils, emacs, bash, automake, autoconf, etc.)  The
> > campaigning the Free Software Foundations does against anti-programmer
> > laws also aids the Free Software community as a whole.
>
> Don't start me.
>
> > Calling the system "GNU" or "GNU/Linux" is not only more accurate but
> > also raises awareness about the GNU project.  This helps attract
> > developers which benefits all Free Software OSs.
>
> And next what?  A link to the GPL and FSF web site?  Your Freedom to
> dictate other people's freedom?  Your freedom to dictate our
> advertising for your politics?
>
> > This is not an all-or-nothing issue, it's the-more-the-merrier.  Even
> > if a quarter (or even one) of the OpenBSD community used the term
> > "GNU" or "GNU/Linux", it would be helpful.  OpenBSD developers owe the
> > FSF nothing, that's what sharing is about, many GNU/Linux users use
> > openssh etc. (thanks).
>
> How about seeing if you can get a non-trivial percentage of the Linux
> community to call themselves "GNU/Linux" first, before pushing this
> kind of stuff on people who Really Don't Care.
>
> I know a lot of people using lots of operating systems.  I think I
> have heard precisely two people refer to Linux as "GNU/Linux".  One of
> them, a relatively new user, said, "Did you know that there are some
> people who say Linux should be said, written and pronounced,
> 'GNU/Linux'?" as if it were the most wacked out thing in the world,
> the other said "GNU" with a snide tone in his voice.  These were Linux
> users, not *BSD users, neither of them even recognized the meaning of
> the OpenBSD T-shirt I was probably wearing.
>
> Whereas, I know Linux users who were using it almost from day one,
> when it was installed from floppy disks.  People who live, eat and
> breath it.  And NONE of them refer to it as "GNU/Linux".
>
> You have a loooooonnnnnnnggggg way to go before you come preaching to
> us.  Work over your choir, first.  Until Linux users start saying "I'm
> using GNU/Linux" to me, what you are requesting of us is just plain
> silly.  OpenBSD does not wish to be a marketing arm for what appears
> to be just a small fringe of the FSF that appears to forget SOFTWARE
> is the product, not names.
>
> A lot of people associated with free software (note the lower case
> letters, but I do include people with the FSF in this) are doing very
> good, very important work.  People wishing to change the popular name
> of a popular piece of software just give those doing real work a bad
> name.
>
> > Any thoughts?
>
> Yes.
> The point at which you tell us how to reference Linux in our
> documentation is the point at which I expect a note from Theo saying,
> "Nick, remove every reference to that operating system" (he won't
> phrase it like that, however), and if he doesn't say that to me, I'll
> ask him.
>
> May I suggest you devote your time to auditing your own code base,
> improving your product, rather than getting wrapped up in petty little
> issues like names.  I don't care what people call me, as long as it is
> said with respect that I have earned.  I'd suggest that philosophy be
> adopted by the FSF.
>
> Or, put concisely: "Shut up and hack"
>
> Nick.
> --
> http://www.holland-consulting.net